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Traveller-digest     Thursday, November 4 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1306<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
Wild blue claims was Re: Diplomacy - I don't<BR>
Re: Solomani Rim data<BR>
Re: Solomani Rim data and CT LBB errata<BR>
Re: Violent Outlet<BR>
FF&S2 armor values<BR>
Islamic Observances in Interstellar Space (Was: Re: [OT] Cultural Differences)<BR>
Common Weaponry (was RE: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
Re: Common Weaponry (was RE: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
FYI: SJG at CONundrum<BR>
Re: Diplomacy - I don't have any....<BR>
Re: Diplomacy<BR>
Wild blue claims was Re: Diplomacy - I don't<BR>
Well-Regulated Militia and Intent<BR>
Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
Re: Violent Outlet (Was Re: A Day of Peace)<BR>
RE: Border Guards<BR>
Re: Diplomacy - I don't have any....<BR>
RE: Violent Outlet (Was Re: A Day of Peace)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:37:26 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Nov 99, at 20:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > At 02:18 PM 11/3/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>Kiri  =)  not Keri, Kerry or Carrie<BR>
> >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > So how is your name pronounced?<BR>
> <BR>
> My money is on "kih-ree" or possibly "key-ree" <BR>
<BR>
The former ir roughly how I'd say "Kiri", too. However that's because <BR>
that's how everyone in NZ says it - we have a famous Kiri - Dame Kiri <BR>
te Kanawa (sp?), and that's how her name is pronounced.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 04:48:51 EST<BR>
From: RASFranzen@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Wild blue claims was Re: Diplomacy - I don't<BR>
<BR>
 cberry@cinenet.net:<BR>
<BR>
<< The major problem with strategic airpower has been its misapplication,<BR>
 particularly since WWII.  In that war, massive, well-coordinated raids on<BR>
 German production and transportation centers significantly damaged<BR>
 Germany's ability to field an effective army.  In the absence of the<BR>
 multiyear bombing campaing, it's quite probable the invasion of France in<BR>
 '44 would have been repelled.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I hope, that you realize, that Germanys highest armarment output was in 1944.<BR>
So much for strategic bombing. Since Douhet the airforces have claimed to be <BR>
able to win wars. Evidence gathered on the ground has always shown this claim <BR>
to be exaggerated.<BR>
<BR>
Even now in Serbia/Kosovo most of the military material claimed to be <BR>
destroyed by air raids was just maskirovka stuff.<BR>
best wishes<BR>
Soenke Franzen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:33:15 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim data<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11/3/99 11:50:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
yikes@evansville.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Wow. Errata in _The Traveller Book_. Kewl.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  It says, right there, bigger 'n hell, on page 82: "Hydrographics Percentage<BR>
>  (2D-7+atmosphere; ..."<BR>
>  <BR>
>  This is then contradicted on the table on page 85. Book 6: Scouts, MT Ref's<BR>
>  Manual, TNE and (apparently) Book 3 all say the table on page 85 is <BR>
correct.<BR>
<BR>
Aha!  Another possible explanation for the anomalies I'm seeing. . .<BR>
<BR>
(I'm also noticing a few anomalies in the population-government-law level<BR>
sequence.  I just did the capsule description for 0214 Shululsish, for<BR>
instance.  Of course, I can buy a world with a population in the tens<BR>
of billions with a participatory democracy, a lot easier than I can buy<BR>
a Luna-sized world covered with liquid water.  Although I think I have<BR>
a handwave for that one too. . .)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 05:36:36 PST<BR>
From: "will richards" <willrichards@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim data and CT LBB errata<BR>
<BR>
FZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>LBB 3, page 12, step 2-D: "Generate hydrographic percentage.<BR>
>2D-7+planetary size (size 0 or 1 requires hydrographic 0; Atmosphere<BR>
>0, 1 or A+, DM -4)."<BR>
<BR>
I have that to but also in the same book....<BR>
B3 Second ed, page 7 Hydrographic Percentage (2D-7+atmosphere, if size 0 <BR>
then hydro of 0, if atmo 0,1,A+ then apply -4)<BR>
and then on page 12 is the of the same book is the refrence you made.<BR>
<BR>
Since page 7 is backed up by multiple other scources I'd go with that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Will<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 07:34:49 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Violent Outlet<BR>
<BR>
>And the perils of speaking the "same language" strikes again!<BR>
><BR>
>In the US, napkins are the things you wipe your hands and face with<BR>
>(aka serviettes(sp)). Diapers are what you put on a baby's bottom.<BR>
<BR>
Or if I would go into a large clothing store in England and ask for<BR>
"suspenders"... what I need to ask for in the UK if I need something<BR>
to keep my pants up are "braces". (And my pants, "trousers"). Over<BR>
there, suspenders and pants = garter belt and panties... :)<BR>
<BR>
>The ObTrav should be obvious. Galanglic will have these sort of<BR>
>boobytraps for every single world that has a few million or more<BR>
>"native speakers". <BR>
><BR>
>Which means that if the ref wants some fun, all he has to do is come up<BR>
>with a different meaning for some common idiom, and watch the confusion.<BR>
><BR>
>"Could I have a napkin, please" in a restaraunt, for example. :-)<BR>
<BR>
We should start coming up with some real examples to use in our games<BR>
and post them here...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 15:45:03 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: FF&S2 armor values<BR>
<BR>
I have a question about FF&S2. The armor values it generates are not<BR>
compatible with the T4 spaceship rules (they are way too high), and<BR>
certainly not with the example ships provided in the rulebook and in teh<BR>
Starships supplement.<BR>
<BR>
I have a conversion formula from FF&S2 to Starships, but I am not sure<BR>
it's correct. Anyway:<BR>
<BR>
* Divide the FF&S2 armor value by the square root of 2<BR>
* Look up the result in the USP Conversion chart from Starships.    <BR>
Extrapolate the given values to one decimal.<BR>
* Multiply the resulting value by 10<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that according to FF&S2, the minimum armor value for a<BR>
spaceship is 20. With the conversion system above, this corresponds to a<BR>
value of 7, which is a lot higher than what seems to be logical (there<BR>
are a lot of armor 0 ships, and the Destroyer only has an armor value of<BR>
10).<BR>
<BR>
What am I doing wrong?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
 Linkoeping, Sweden<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:55:25 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Islamic Observances in Interstellar Space (Was: Re: [OT] Cultural Differences)<BR>
<BR>
Black Ice wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Of course, the _real_ problem, for Muslims in the 3I (especially prior<BR>
to the Solomani Rim War), is the requirement for pilgrimage to Mecca<BR>
(Al-Haj).  Even after Terra falls to Imperial forces, travel to Mecca,<BR>
and the return trip home, could take half a lifetime or more for Muslims<BR>
in the Spinward Marches.  It wouldn't surprise me if Islamic scholars<BR>
established shrines throughout human space that would suffice to fulfill<BR>
the pilgrimage requirement, without having to travel for a decade or<BR>
more each way on one's pilgrimage.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Cold sleep. Put 'em in cold sleep, they won't age during the trip, so the<BR>
half a lifetime isn't lost. Ship 'em to Earth and back as cargo.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, the person will be a decade or more away, and the costs will be<BR>
astounding, but that will make the sacrifice all the more significant.<BR>
<BR>
Unless Muslims have a problem with a pilgrimage made while asleep - <BR>
it may be that the spiritual effect of going to sleep at Efate and waking<BR>
up ten minutes from Mecca would be considerably less than that of <BR>
walking from, say, Islamabad to Mecca.<BR>
<BR>
Can Mecca even handle the Islamic pilgrims that live on Earth, much<BR>
less in the trillenium of 3I population?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:07:08 -0600 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Common Weaponry (was RE: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin posted:<BR>
><BR>
>As the nice man said in Spinal Tap, "Sometimes it's just handy to have a <BR>
>solid piece of wood about."   Ok, so it's not a direct quote, but you get <BR>
>the idea...<BR>
<BR>
Miyamoto Musashi would agree with you. <BR>
<BR>
However, the most common and easily accessible weapon in the universe is a<BR>
rock. (Recommended by 9 out 10 Aslan in comfy shoes).<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:28:27 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Common Weaponry (was RE: [OT] One Day In Peace)<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Mark Urbin posted:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >As the nice man said in Spinal Tap, "Sometimes it's just handy to have a<BR>
> >solid piece of wood about."   Ok, so it's not a direct quote, but you get<BR>
> >the idea...<BR>
> <BR>
> Miyamoto Musashi would agree with you.<BR>
> <BR>
> However, the most common and easily accessible weapon in the universe is a<BR>
> rock. (Recommended by 9 out 10 Aslan in comfy shoes).<BR>
<BR>
As well as by funny round-headed kids on Hallowe'en.  ("I got a candy<BR>
apple!" "I got a pack of gum!" "_I_ got a rock.")<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the full military nomenclature, as any survivor of the Fort<BR>
Huachuca Tactical Interrogation Course (MOS 97E) can tell you, is the<BR>
ST-1 hand grenade ["ST-one"].<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:41:20 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: FYI: SJG at CONundrum<BR>
<BR>
According to the SJG Daily Illuminator, Loren Wiseman will head up the<BR>
SJG delegation at CONundrum in San Antonio, TX, 5-7 Nov 99.<BR>
<BR>
Thought you'd like to know....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:49:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Diplomacy - I don't have any....<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, it's not the fact that you responded, it's how you respond that I<BR>
take exception too. You always speak down to people like you are the only<BR>
one with intelligence on this list. It gets old. I've met plenty of people<BR>
like you who have tons of book intelligence but can't walk through a doorway<BR>
and chew gum at the same time. They ricochet off the doorframe because they<BR>
are so locked in to what they are doing.<BR>
Very smart, no common sense.... You have a very aggravating way of<BR>
correcting people that you need to work on.  I'm having a bad month with<BR>
tons of personal problems and when I try to do something nice I get hammered<BR>
upside the head, I didn't need it and certainly didn't expect it. So please<BR>
be more careful in the future when you are going to put somebody in their<BR>
place, they might own an Uzi and work at the Post Office and be from your<BR>
home town or something....<Not me, I'm a pacifist!><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
Well excuse me for trying to warn someone that they might just have a<BR>
*pirated* copy of something. It's very common for folks pirating games<BR>
to claim that it's been released into PD by the copyright holder. So<BR>
relying on what the stuff included with the file *says* is risky at<BR>
best.<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------Thom's<BR>
reply-------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
That isn't what you did! You told me that I didn't know what was what with<BR>
the software. I'll quote it back to you if you've lost the original post.<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------- End Thom's<BR>
reply---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
If it is PD, great! I'd want to see someone direct from the copyright<BR>
holder before I'd risk distributing it. The per copy damages the<BR>
copyright holder can claim are a bit too steep for *my* bank account.<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------Thom's<BR>
reply-------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
I told you that it was free, if that's not good enough, fine don't ask for<BR>
it.  But keep your mouth shut and don't call me a liar or go out of your way<BR>
to make me feel stupid, I don't like it. I don't care how brilliant you are.<BR>
BTW Leonard, I do think you are VERY VERY smart, I mean that, just not very<BR>
wise.<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------- End Thom's<BR>
reply---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:54:02 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Diplomacy<BR>
<BR>
You missed my point entirely...... What I was talking about is the people<BR>
that want to receive it. They don't care about semantics, all they want to<BR>
know is can they receive it and use it without paying anything.  The answer<BR>
is YES.... After that it's a moot point and silly to be arguing about.<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 3:56 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Diplomacy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:02:25 -0500<BR>
> >From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Diplomacy - I don't have any....<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Dave, this isn't meant as a flame and I apologize to Leonard for my<BR>
earlier<BR>
> >post but I have to say to both of you guys WHO CARES?<BR>
>                                             ^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> There are those who do. As far as copyright issues go, PD and Freeware are<BR>
> VERY different.<BR>
><BR>
> Public Domain is a subset of freeware, not all (nor even most) freeware is<BR>
> in the public domain.<BR>
><BR>
> For example, all of my software is freeware. I allow people to use the<BR>
> software. I do not allow others to modify it without listing me in the<BR>
> credits. Certain software that is over 20 years old IS in the public<BR>
> domain... Certain others are never copyrighted. Such public domain<BR>
> materials can be used for any purpose (including commercial) without any<BR>
> concerns. Most freeware, however, is restricted rights. And, since a "Hand<BR>
> Copyright" (Non-registered copyright) is valid in the US, with duration<BR>
> variable by material (Music, at least in 1990, was 2 years on a hand<BR>
> copyright).<BR>
><BR>
> And, speaking of irritating habits, sorry 'bout the subject-less posts...<BR>
I<BR>
> get the digest, and sometimes don't remeber to retype or cut and past the<BR>
> subject...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
> interface!"<BR>
> Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
> 533<BR>
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis<BR>
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa<BR>
> ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
> pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:23:00 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Wild blue claims was Re: Diplomacy - I don't<BR>
<BR>
Soenke Franzen wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
I hope, that you realize, that Germany?s highest armarment output was in <BR>
1944. So much for strategic bombing. Since Douhet the airforces have <BR>
claimed to be  able to win wars. Evidence gathered on the ground has <BR>
always shown this claim to be exaggerated.<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
Ask Japan how significant the American air force can be in winning<BR>
a war.<BR>
<BR>
Germany had an interesting situation at this time. Right up until then,<BR>
the Nazi regime had been unable (or unwilling) to militarize much<BR>
of the civilian economy. Household goods were still being produced,<BR>
much of the city economy was devoted to civilian service industries,<BR>
they were even still importing foriegn labor to act as housekeepers. <BR>
<BR>
Then American bombers leveled much of the German urban centers.<BR>
<BR>
Munitions and other military plants were quickly rebuilt, due to the<BR>
needs and resources of the government. Many heavy machine tools<BR>
proved difficult to destroy, even when the building surrounding them<BR>
was badly damaged, and the important machines could be moved<BR>
with relative ease. <BR>
<BR>
Cabarets, beer gardens and department stores were not rebuilt - and the <BR>
workers who had been employed there had to find other work, many at<BR>
the new weapons plants.<BR>
<BR>
In this regard, American airpower acted to force the German economy<BR>
more strongly towards a war footing, which, though more efficient, probably <BR>
had a significant morale effect on the civilian populace.<BR>
<BR>
The biggest victories of the American strategic bombing command<BR>
were in the attrition of the German transportation networks (especially<BR>
rolling stock) and the serious interference with German lubricant and fuel <BR>
production. <BR>
<BR>
The German Jet Fighter program, though they fielded operational units, <BR>
spent most of it's time on the ground due to a lack of essential supplies, <BR>
and by late 1944 many German tank formations were operating with little <BR>
or no fuel reserves on hand. This lack, coupled with Germany's serious<BR>
transportation problems, was a crucial element in the American and<BR>
British ground combat successes in the West (as well as the Soviet<BR>
successes in the East).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Pick your targets carefully when black warring a world. One<BR>
barrage of missiles, at the right target, can be worth a week of ortillery<BR>
strikes. The atmosphere generation plants may be very well defended,<BR>
but what of the factory that supplies it with spare parts?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:21:40 -0700<BR>
From: scharlto@ifsna.com<BR>
Subject: Well-Regulated Militia and Intent<BR>
<BR>
Actually, since the National Guard is funded and regulated by<BR>
the Federal Government, and controlled by the Federal Government<BR>
in large measure, it is pretty clear that it is not even close<BR>
to what the Founders intended.  Reading the Federalist Papers<BR>
and other 'explanatory' essays put out by the Founding Fathers<BR>
to explain the new Constitution to the masses, it is clear that<BR>
the intent was for an individual right.  The controversy today<BR>
really boils down to 'Do we interpret this amendment based on<BR>
intent or based on current opinions?'  For the record, I am<BR>
firmly in the 'intent' camp and I strongly support the<BR>
individual right concept.<BR>
<BR>
Hoping to avoid another 2nd Amendment flame war and to bring<BR>
this back to Traveller: The Imperium does not have a<BR>
Constitution, but it has 'Founding Declarations' of some sort -<BR>
establishing the Moot and other conventions of Imperial<BR>
Structure.  The Imperium is also heavily bound by non-written<BR>
tradition (The Right of Assassination, forex).  Are these things<BR>
interpreted against 'modern' opinion, or are they interpreted<BR>
based on the original intent?  The Right of Assassination seems<BR>
to be a developed tradition that appears well after the Imperium<BR>
is founded, but it could actually just be an old (Empire of<BR>
Man?) tradition that has resurfaced.<BR>
<BR>
In a oligarchial society like the Imperium, I think that Intent<BR>
would not really be as strong a factor for interpretation, due<BR>
to the absolute power of the Emperor (I, Cleon, declare that the<BR>
Right of Free Assembly applies only to persons with full heads<BR>
of hair, and only on Tuesdays); Tradition would be a much<BR>
stronger tool of social influence.  In a more democratic<BR>
society, the level of attention paid to Intent would be (IMHO)<BR>
the thing that places that society on the scale of<BR>
Representative Government to Mob Rule (not organized crime mob,<BR>
of course).  Those societies that interpret and implement laws<BR>
based on Intent would tend more towards a formal representative<BR>
or republican government, while those societies that reinterpret<BR>
issues more and more often based on common opinion would be<BR>
those that tend toward the true Demos-style democracy where<BR>
everyone votes on everything.<BR>
<BR>
On a practical level, Travellers will find pretty much evey<BR>
combination or interpretation you can imagine, and traditions<BR>
will vary so widely that Intent would not have a very important<BR>
influence on how things go when travelling across the secotr.<BR>
But for those Travellers who are heavily involved in the<BR>
government of one world (members of the aristocracy etc), this<BR>
could be very important.  How much can you bend the rules and<BR>
get away with it?  If you do bend the rules, is this likely to<BR>
change the rules in the future, or just be seen as an aberration<BR>
to be punished or ignored?  Most Travellers see law and custom<BR>
on a world in terms of 'What weapons may I have or buy here?',<BR>
but that little UPP number does not tell the whole story.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:<BR>
> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> This is the part of the argument I have never understood. I<BR>
mean, isn't it<BR>
>> supposed to be "_organised_ militia"?? I mean, Switzerland<BR>
has an organised<BR>
>> militia, they have military weapons at home, and it seems to<BR>
work rather<BR>
>> well. This doesn't appear to be the case in the US.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, the US does have an 'organized militia'.  It's called<BR>
the National Guard, and is probably fairly close >to what the<BR>
founders wanted, since they were more states-rights people than<BR>
democrats per se, and the national >guard is under the control<BR>
of individual states (and does, incidentally, have military<BR>
equipment).  However, the >second amendment is subject to<BR>
multiple different interpretations; in particular, it is not<BR>
obvious that the >right to bear arms is _limited_ to the<BR>
creation of a 'well-ordered militia'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
PS - the actual wording is 'Well-regulated militia'.  The whole<BR>
phrase is part of a dependent clause, so it is not particularly<BR>
a statement of law, but more of clairification.  Unfortunately,<BR>
word meanings shift over time.  Well-Regulated at that time had<BR>
the meaning well-equipped and well-trained, not well-supervised.<BR>
Of course, one's definition of well-equipped and well-trained<BR>
varies.<BR>
<BR>
STC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:27:46 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Emperors of the Rule of Man #8<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 3 Nov 99, at 20:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > In mail you write:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > At 02:18 PM 11/3/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> > >><BR>
> > >>Kiri  =)  not Keri, Kerry or Carrie<BR>
> > >><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > So how is your name pronounced?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > My money is on "kih-ree" or possibly "key-ree" <BR>
> <BR>
> The former ir roughly how I'd say "Kiri", too. However that's because <BR>
> that's how everyone in NZ says it - we have a famous Kiri - Dame Kiri <BR>
> te Kanawa (sp?), and that's how her name is pronounced.<BR>
> <BR>
That's about right.  The "r" sounds a little different when nihonjin say<BR>
it, but I'm not picky about that-- I just don't want people to call me<BR>
Carrie.  Usually people who have heard of Kiri Te Kanawa say it right.<BR>
<BR>
Which is funny, cause I grew up on the banks of the Kanawha River.  I love<BR>
synchronicity!<BR>
<BR>
Once I got an email spam.  I forget what it was about but it was addressed<BR>
to about 200 people all named Kiri.  Someone had extracted the email<BR>
addresses of all the Kiri's they could find on the net!<BR>
<BR>
I was so amazed.  Most of the email addresses were to people in Japan or<BR>
Finland but there were quite a few NZ and Australia addies too.  I sent<BR>
out a query asking them to respond if they felt like it, remarking that<BR>
I'd no idea there were so many of us!  My favorite response was from an<BR>
Aboriginal man in Australia who told me his name was Kiriwera but people<BR>
always called him Kiri.  I'd no idea there were male Kiri's!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri =)<BR>
<BR>
("yes, the first name is Japanese, the middle name is Tuscan, yes my<BR>
mother was Irish, and I'm sorry, I don't speak Spanish... let's just say<BR>
I'm Solomani, OK?")<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:37:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Violent Outlet (Was Re: A Day of Peace)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In the US, napkins are the things you wipe your hands and face with<BR>
> (aka serviettes(sp)). Diapers are what you put on a baby's bottom.<BR>
> <BR>
> And (for our British list members), "knock up" means "make pregnant"<BR>
> and "fanny" is a synonym for "butt", not for "vagina".<BR>
> <BR>
What does "knock up" mean in Britain?<BR>
<BR>
My favorite British English story is about how my ex-husband, who came to<BR>
the US from Hong Kong at age 14 to go to boarding school, almost got<BR>
punched out by an American girl in his class when he asked her if she had<BR>
a rubber he could use.  (HK people use British English; "rubber" there is<BR>
"eraser" here.  "Rubber" here is "condom.")<BR>
<BR>
> "Could I have a napkin, please" in a restaraunt, for example. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
LOL!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:39:14 -0000 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@exchange.rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Border Guards<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> >From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
><BR>
> >ObTrav:  How common is the non-self incrimination<BR>
> > right in planetarylaw?<BR>
><BR>
> The Terrans probably carried the idea from the<BR>
> American/European model of the social contract that<BR>
> they brought into space.<BR>
<BR>
I wonder how long that will last.  In the UK the Right to Silence<BR>
when arrested has gone:<BR>
<BR>
    "... Anything you say may be taken down in  writing  and<BR>
    used in evidence against you.  Anything  you  don't  say<BR>
    but which you later rely on in  court  may  be  used  in<BR>
    evidence against you ..."<BR>
<BR>
The rational was that if you are innocent then you  have  nothing<BR>
to hide.  This weakens non-self incrimination  rights,  and  even<BR>
weakens "innocent until proven guilty"!  And  when  you  consider<BR>
that UK and  US  politicians  regularly  meet  to  swap  ideas  I<BR>
wouldn't be surprised if one day something similar happens in the<BR>
US.   As  an  outside  observer  it  sometimes  seems   that   US<BR>
politicians  find  the  US  Constitution  an  impediment  to   be<BR>
circumvented rather than something they support.  (Oops,  getting<BR>
dangerously OT here.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Is it a low law level concept, high LL concept, or <BR>
> >does it span both?<BR>
><BR>
> The higher the law level, the greater the level of<BR>
> governmental intrusion on personal affairs and the<BR>
> greater the level of corruption.  Lower law level<BR>
> societies therefore provide more formal safeguards to<BR>
> individuals against the state.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree with the link between high LL and corruption.  Some of<BR>
the sheriffs in the American Wild West were corrupt and that  was<BR>
a low LL situation.  I  don't  think  there  is  any  correlation<BR>
between LL and corruption.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
"If the ship is sinking - maybe the rats have a point."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:48:38 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Diplomacy - I don't have any....<BR>
<BR>
>At 0:10 -0500 4/11/99,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <BR>
><jamstar@accesstoledo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > and B-52s ended the Vietnam war.. The more research I do, the less<BR>
> > impressed I am with the Air Farces of the world.<BR>
><BR>
>The problem with B52s during the war was, they carried old weapons, <BR>
>not the new improved 'smart' weapons they keep touting these days. <BR>
>At cruising altitude, you couldn't hit the ground hardly with those <BR>
>old WW2 era bombs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Which defy gravity? :-)<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure you can hit the ground, it would be more a matter of where you hit it?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
                        MiB - Marines in Battledress<BR>
    "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"<BR>
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:03:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Violent Outlet (Was Re: A Day of Peace)<BR>
<BR>
On Thursday, November 04, 1999 8:38 AM<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan said,<BR>
<BR>
> What does "knock up" mean in Britain?<BR>
<BR>
Check out "What a load of codswallop, pet! "<BR>
http://www.wmin.ac.uk/~sfgva/ukus.htm<BR>
<BR>
"19) 'Knock you up'. In our country, to wake someone up in the morning so<BR>
they won't be late. Slightly different meaning for our American Cousins...<BR>
(A big hint for Brits - preggers)."<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
==================================<BR>
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." -John<BR>
Benfield<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1306<BR>
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